Your opinions regarding bowling instruction.

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I have had bowling lessons from Pro Bowlers on two different occasions. These lessons were based on beginning level bowlers and I think they actually did more harm to my game then help. There were too many people and not enough coaches, the information was rudimentary, and I don't remember any instructions specific to improving my game.

I went to a Dick Ritger camp with my wife. This was probably the best money I ever spent. Coach to student ratio was about 1 to 4 and there were plenty of individualized instructions. Your game was basically broken down to the basics and worked on 1 phase at a time. Besides the on lane instructions every night we took off and did something as a group. Miniature golf, meals, sight seeing, etc. The hotel and the bowling camp were a package (at that time) so it ended up being a vacation for my wife and myself.

Since then due to a job change I layed off bowling for about 4 years. After going back, I decided to fine tune my game. I went to a coach that was certified as USA silver level and Dick Ritger level 1. He told me I had a very sound game and the 2 things he gave me to work on were more follow through and clearing my trailing leg. I also went to another USA silver level coach and he gave me absolutely nothing to work on in my game. It was basically a 1 hour practice session. If these two are indicative of the USA coaching program I am not impressed.

[KAJMK]

Billy, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

This forum here at BTM is a very good venue for information exchange and I hope it continues to grow. Many of us do not have the opportunity to sit and talk with high quality bowlers and coaches. If we were to tag along with the PBA and be all ears and eyes, we'd probably learn about things we did not know about.

I've been to a Ritger camp, I was already familiar with his methods having purchased and viewed the tapes. Years before I had bought the set of books by Ritger & Dr. George Allen. The Ritger Methodology is very sound, the skill drills help instill "the feel", which is so very important.
It is essential that we have something to sink our tactile teeth in to, pure and simple. Until the body and mind know what the proper and improper motions feel like, all of the theory is almost a total waste insofar as performance is concerned.

Touching on the Ritger methods, I'm not saying I totally agree with everything in absolute fashion. I've heard with my ears a Ritger instructor with too much of a "lock step" mentality,
But it could have been a company line thing. Ritger is very sound and analytical though,
But his tapes will cure any lack of sleep problems you have, because he is not what you'd call blessed with oratory prowess (in a stirring fashion) whereas, Borden has that gift.


I've been certified Bronze and Silver USAB and I can tell you that their program will not make a person a coach anymore than reading or watching tapes will. There are some things there to fill in voids in knowledge gaps. However, I must say that they need to add more to the program This is also not to infer that you are not a good coach if you do not know all of the material with all of the I's dotted and T's crossed. So I guess I'm saying that the USAB folks could improve what they do, but, it is up to the conscience of the individual whether to hang up a shingle or not. I can tell you that I already new most of the materials presented. What I did find valuable was the time spent on video analysis, which I wish would have been more. I think they could do a lot with computer aided education, buttttttttttt, the demand has to be there to justify it.
Lets face it, the ranks of those seeking bowling knowledge, let alone actual coaching is to steal a phrase, "A thin red line".

Teaching and grooming coaches would probably take more resources and time than anyone could commit (I be a thinkin'). That's almost like a Master's degree program where a student to teacher ratio should be small so that high quality information reinforced by application can occur.
I think that perhaps to do the job right it might coast more than people want to pay.

Teaching coaches, this is a fine application for using computer software to enhance teaching would be teachers or showing them how far from shore they may be.

I doubt very much that many if any coaches burst on to the scene as full fledged gurus. To and extent it's like aging wine or scotch. And there will be trial and error like it or not.

I might add that though I have certifications, I do not consider myself ready to coach yet (if ever) nor would I take a penny until I honestly felt I was if that day were ever to come. The fly in the ointment there is that it is a learning process itself. This is where cameras and computer equipment can really help because there are things that happen perhaps too fast for the eye to catch. A seasoned coach might infer something happened or did not happen or better yet the instant it happened
e.g. release point is critical, when did it happen and how cleanly did the thumb come out …
(The Holman/Jowdy tape "Maximum Bowling" used sound and slow motion, thus you could hear the slide and the exit of the thumb as well as see it - we learn with all of the senses!!!)
Some of the video analysis I've seen on the Kegel website would be a very good method of teaching not only the bowler, but the would be coach. They should save and sell some of that stuff (again is there a demand that warrants expenditure??)
A lot of what we read or see in magazines would sink in a lot more with this type of media (opinion).

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I've gone to the Kegel site regularly hoping to view new information. I sent an email once expressing interest in watching past tips. I was informed they didn't have the storage space on their server to archive these, but they were thinking of amassing them on dvd if enough people were interested. I later contacted them and it was as if I had imagined the whole incident. Know one knew of any effort to produce a dvd or video of past tips. That was one of the few times I wish I would have saved my email from the original reply.

[Sceptic]

I have seen numerous coaches with USA credentials coaching yaba kids in our center, who tell every kid "You aren't following through" or "You are getting to the line too early" without ever a mention why or giving him/her some tools to stop it. I know any coach is better than none, but I really have to bite my tongue at times to keep from yelling at them.

[KAJMK]

I have seen numerous coaches with USA credentials coaching yaba kids in our center, who tell every kid "You aren't following through" or "You are getting to the line too early" without ever a mention why or giving him/her some tools to stop it. I know any coach is better than none, but I really have to bite my tongue at times to keep from yelling at them.

I wonder if they'd be open to some one on one conversation with yourself
a concerned observer?
That situation right there assuming there is not more to the story than you know, is a scenario for a question on a test.
It's my opinion that much more emphasis needs to be placed on actual diagnosis and recommendations. Phase one via computer video analysis,
then actual on the lanes scenarios. Presently, there is not enough of this.
Again, USAB needs to add some levels of granularity to groom coaches.
In part, I think mentoring is needed and perhaps apprenticeships.
Some people (would be coaches) may be naturals and some may have enough ability but need some nurturing.
I really think that if we are serious about certifying coaches, we need to actually assess the persons ability to diagnose and plan for a cure.
Recognize the root of the problem, come up with recommendations, be prepared for alternate solutions, choice or phrases etc.
The buzzwords, jargon et al, are o.k. but are like memorizing math formulas, knowing the formula does not make one a mathematician.

Take care.

[nosey]

Hello to all of you,
This coaching forum is some good stuff. It is very interesting and all of the replies fit together. I think this is the first time I have visited a forum where almost ever one agreed. I have a Silver Level certification but I do not coach. Coaching is just not for me. I have a Pro Shop and I am IBPSIA Certified. I have attended Super Schools in Detroit and Renoand other schools in Atlanta, Jacksonville, Fl and Las Vegas. I have been taught by the best, John Jody, Fred Borden, Bill Hall and the list goes on. From where I stand now with my level of training and experence I can relate to all of you. I fell that I am quallfied to say I could not find fault with any of you.
I will agree that coaching and learning comes in different levels. One step at a time.
This is my $.02's worth.
Nosey

[Jamie Bell]

I like this forum, good points made. I was reading earlier comments the guy was mentioning how one coach who was less qualified was more of help than silver qualified coach. A badge doesn't mean one is better than the other coach. I am just nearing end diploma of sports coaching at college, without disrespect few people small number coaches in my class are qualified but i wouldn't say they make a great coach. A great coach sometimes doesn't work for the player because different idea methods some work for some people other methods don't work for others its about finding right coach. I play in scotland where standard is not as high as the states, i put that down to not having enougth coaches. I'm in area where i have no coach but i get few people good freinds and expierenced keep eye on my game, andask their oppion. I have been on two coaching courses one was dick ritger and unfortunatly he couldnt make it and got another coach, now he did coach but it was more of group thing than one to one, i didn't like that much. Reason being every bowler has different aspects, and you can't coach them all same aspects as they may allready be strong in particular area and time could be put to more use. The other course was Bill Hall and JOhn Fantini and i have to say their course was refreshing and was like breath fresh air to my bowling. I was top bowler in scotland as junior then my old coach stopped coaching me struggled with my game, felt downhearted. iI went bowling every day to improve but to no avail reason being only so much you can get of internet and coach yourself when you know very little. I believe lot people even top bowlers know little about the game, as their is not one bowler who can do every shot possible. Bill Halls freind now and i look up to him, as like every bowler and coach im sure learned from mistakes and improved because knowledge got of him in week i would love to get every week. He learned me so much in such short time, he's motivational hes encouraging, he doesnt look down on you as struggling bowler he looks for your potential, he realises what your capable of installs confidence to me thats what makes awesome coach. If i had choice holiday caribean or on bill halls course i would take bill halls coaching course every time.

[Jim H]

I was reading earlier comments the guy was mentioning how one coach who was less qualified was more of help than silver qualified coach. A badge doesn't mean one is better than the other coach.

Hi Jamie


There are some good points you made.

I am a bit surprised at your comment that there are some taking a college diploma course in sports coaching with you and you don’t believe they will make great coaches. Only time will tell.

Assuming that they are learning general coaching theory at the course, if they apply those coaching skills to the techniques and tactics they learn through the courses specific to their chosen sport over time they may become great coaches.

Successful bowling coaching is more than knowing the best way to deliver a bowling ball, it is also about the best way to teach the bowler how to do what is required.

Unfortunately most bowling coaching courses simply train coaches in the technique of bowling. Very few train coaches how to teach. These are two distinct skills and that is sometimes the reason a coach with a lower qualification may appear to be more effective, in other words they are better communicators or teachers.

Teaching skills can also be learned by the coach, and those coaches who take the time to develop those skills eventually become more effective coaches. A coach needs to be able to get the message across to the bowler. Children and adults learn in different ways, and the best coaches will develop the skills necessary to work with the target group.

You said that you are nearing the end of your diploma course in sport coaching. I hope that you will now take a bowling coaching course and then apply both skills to those you coach in bowling. With a higher standard of coaching, in a few years we may see a Scottish bowler on the podium in a major bowling event. Good luck with your coaching career.

[dR3w]

Hi.

Here is my response to the original post.

I attented a PBI camp over 5 years ago. Fred Borden and a woman did the majority of the instruction. The woman coaches the USA team, but I can't recall her name right now.

At the time that I went to the camp I had been averaging in the 190s. I thought my game was better than it was. It was a 3 day camp with both instruction in classroom and on the lanes.

Overall I felt that I learned a lot. I knew more than 75% of what was tought in the classroom, and thought that it was a lot of fundamental information. I did get some information out of it, so it wasn't wasted time, but it would have been better had I not had to sit through much of it.

The lane play was kind of done ad hoc, and everyone was looked at, taped at the beginning of instruction and at the end, and analyzed. It wasn't a CATS analyses, but a computer look at your swing, and your timing. I found this to be very informative, and a must for anyone who wants to get better.

I didn't think that I got as much individual attention as I would have liked. People who were pushy, tended to get the most instruction.

The class also offered a ball, and a professional ball fitting. I thought that this was done as more of a sales type addition. It gave Don Moyer a chance to sell and drill balls for people. He did know a lot, but I didn't think that he offered me much more than any of my local pro shops.

Overall I thought for me it was a positive experience and taught me a lot about bowling, and timing. I left with a plan for how to improve my game, and that was valuable. Overall I would have preferred more individual instruction, and less classroom work. I think that with the a mixed level class of bowlers, the topics for the classroom are hard to pick and choose since the level of education about bowling for all of the students will be quite varied.

Next I attended a Kegel training class with a silver level coach. I purposefully went out of my way to move my scheduled date over one month into the future to get thier best coach (Shockly I think), but one week before I arrived they switched me to another instructor. At that point my travel arrangements were fixed and I was stuck (so to speak). I thought that this was very poor on their part. Having to travel by plane to get to Florida, I was annoyed at their inconsiderate scheduling.

Anyway, I was given a CATS analyses of my game, and tips on how to improve. It was one-on-one instruction, and was very helpful. I got a lot of valuable information.

What went wrong: The VHS taping that they did during my training had a problem with the audio that day, so the coach had to redub the tape. I thought by doing this, a lot of the information that he gave me during taping was lost.

My remarks. Overall going to Kegel helped me and gave me a plan for improving. I learned what my measurable speeds, and angles were, and I was given information on how to improve them. I was given a tape that I still look at every once in a while, and found my coach to be open-minded and insiteful.

How it could be better: First of all, I think that I could have helped the process myself by preparing better. I could have prepared a list of questions that come to my mind when I am bowling and am not sure what is going on. I often find myself struggling with something at one time or another, but don't write down those questions.

Time was still spent going over spare systems, lane breakdown, and other things that I didn't want to waste time on. I can get this information from reading Bowling This Month, or other periodicals, and didn't want to wast my valuable personal time going over this stuff.

What is unavoidable: I had to schedule my training during the summer. uring the summer I usually only bowl once a week. Thus my game is certainly not in it's best shape. Next the approches on their center were a lot tackier than what I have at home. Even with my most slippery sole, I was not able to slide as long as I like. I had to make small changes in getting used to their approaches. Combine these two factors, and it makes for a subpar performance in some areas, that are typically not problems in my game. This then shows up in your CATS analyses and thus contributes to changes in your game that might not be as necessary as others. So what I am trying to say is that a one time coaching analyses is far from perfect. They take a snap shot of your game at one point in time and try to help you from there. More regular visits would be much more helpful. At least I think in my case. Also I found that shotgun training it tough to master. In both of my cases, the instructors found multiple problems with my game. Anyone who has practiced knows that trying to correct multiple things in their game at the same time is almost impossible, and concentrating on 3 different things while trying to deliver a ball is a recipe for failure.

Moving on from there. Even with both of these clinics under my belt, I still find that a lot of my bad habits creep back into my game. As a matter of fact some have never been fixed. So thinking that a clinic or two is going to cure you of all of your bad habits is probably hoping for too much.

Here is something that I also found is a problem with one day clinics. Lets say that a coach finds a flaw in your swing. You practice correcting it, but now something else goes wrong. Is it your new swing corrected, that is causing another problem, or are you not properly fixing the problem with your swing. Being days or weeks from your completed training you are now left wondering what to do, or how to fix it.

I have taken golf lessons, and there are lots of qualified golf teachers in my area. Unfortunately for me in Lynchburg, Virginia there are no good coaches to help me. In golf if I practice something and introduce another flaw, I can go back to my coach anytime and work on the new problem. With one time clinics you are left on your own wondering how to fix your problem. This has left me on occasion just going back to my old habits, that I think I know how to compensate for, or at least knowing how to live with.

I am still thinking about going to a Dick Ritger clinic, but don't know if I should spend the money at this point.

Just my 10 cents.

Drew

[Jamie Bell]

Hiya Jim H

What i meant by some on my course would not do so well is because their career path once leaving college, majority want to be PE teatchers and in scotland PE teatching is not very advanced. I feel majority are good though. Hey i would love to get up in international podium, when i look at coaching i se england more advanced than scotland in coaching terms, simply because their are areas in scotland not with enougth coaches, take my area no coaches, yet my area produces lot international myself im in under 25's. I feel america is more advanced also video annalysis. I'm sure in future i will be a bowling coach, but in sport their is tendancy you have to prove yourself at sport as a player as well as a coach at times. If i couldnt coach i would bowl. I would love coach bowling but im trying to concentrate on my bowling. I think every bowler has their own we views and angles that can help a bowler i have loads. If not scoring well ill imagine im tomas leanderson with smooth shot hitting the lane, ill imagine bowling ball is like a pebble hitting the water. Take deep breath's do certain routine before tourament whether pump yourself up or relax. Its very true what you sai dpeoploe can become confused by teatcher and coach, some people have natuyral insticts to be a coach others don't anyway i better go ive got class thx for msg Jamie